The Future of Content Marketing | Podcast S02E07

As we find ourselves now in the year 2020, we begin to observe speculation of trends and its feasibility in the realm of content marketing. Chatters about the rise of Tik Tok and its potential to override Instagram has proven to date that it’s not happening (just yet!). Perhaps the prediction of Facebook and its death isn’t too far off from reality, but we can notice that most businesses are beginning to experiment with different tactics, expanding their knowledge on how to optimize their core communications channels while keeping up to date with technology advancements and more importantly, how their target audience are beginning to shirt and respond differently. 

How can a brand ensure that they are able to create a relevant key message that will get across in a big, big digital world? On this episode, we reflect and begin to look at the future and what it holds for brands and their content strategy. After speaking to a series of global experts ranging from brand strategists to agency leads to copywriters and brand communications specialists - we realize that everyone had discovered their own method and strategies that are highly contextual depending on product, service, culture, and location. Led by Wavemakers founders, Nadzirah Hashim and Rachel Lai, tune in and join us on a contemplative meets analytical journey where we talk about the future of content marketing from 2020 and beyond. 

“Brands are analyzing our private lives, everything is tap-able but with the intention of wanting to create more purposeful content for consumers”

Yes, it’s true. Data has been misused and we understand that it gets a little concerning as users. Platforms are compiling your ‘interest’ and ‘behaviour.’ As marketers, we know that part of our jobs is to tap into that information to analyze how we can support brands to create content that is more meaningful, not misrepresented. Instead of seeing technology as an invasion, one begins to see the power of technology to fulfill its mission and serve better. 

“The beauty about software is that they have a more advanced capability of scraping millions of data that a human can’t do within a short period of time”

Being more sophisticated in our ways of communicating in key here. We don’t want empty discussions, but we see that brands are trying to strengthen their tribes by being more conscious. Relevance is important in this day and age, and you can’t just create content for the sake of creating with no basis or justification. By humanizing the brand, they are able to build a stronger bridge that transmits content that engages. This is why technology will be used at an advantage for humanity in making sure their priorities are valued and that their interest matters. 

“Despite modern tools, the FEELS still matters. We are not speaking to robots.”

There’s a reason why we look into the customer journey and remember - this is not possible if you don’t know WHO your customers are. With the help of tools like social listening or Quora or google analytics, brands have easy access to their consumers and if they were to combine intellect and intuition, they will know how to use data as a foundation but to enhance their hypothesis by using emotional intelligence. Without this perspective, GOOD content will not be possible. It’s one thing to create content that is geared towards success, but there are other elements that are not measurable (this is where qualitative surveys come in!). No matter how advanced we get with technology, it will never be 100% successful in taking over the power of empathy. Let’s just say - real, face to face conversations will never go out of trend.



Don't skip this bit. 

  • The trendiest things that drive people behaviour is a great way for brands to research and observe how content can mobilize people.
  • Marketers who don’t have a giant budget need to be brave enough to experiment. Testing different campaigns to see what works/does not.
  • There’s no secret recipe to what makes content viral. Most times, viral trends don’t make sense.
  • The challenge these days is to simplify, and as a marketer, it’s important to niche it out and create multiple campaigns, breaking down your giant key messages into bite-sized information that caters to your target audience


Push or Pull? Content Marketing - Awareness and Action? | Podcast S02E04

Given the evolution of digital channels, we all know that it’s getting harder to create content because we can no longer homogenize the way people receive and consume content. Good content is all about bringing both long and short term benefits for any brand out there who’s looking not to only survive but thrive in the online world. Are your customers going to remember you and what is the first thing that comes to their mind when they think about your brand? This requires a holistic view of not just the business as a whole but as well as the audience. The push or pull framework is important in the realm of content marketing because the choice of words and visuals have the power to persuade and convince your customers to act accordingly.

When it comes to push or pull, we need to think of how we are approaching our customers. Traditionally most of us understand marketing from a rather promotional standpoint whereby it’s all about blatantly pushing a product or service in front of consumers. Every time you go grocery shopping and see a discounted card placed above a promotional section, you are basically experienced a push marketing method. On the contrary, the pull marketing method is built on the basis of loyalty – whereby your customers will be drawn to your product or service simply because they want to. That loyalty card from your favorite coffee joint is a form of pull marketing method that assumes that you are a returning customer who will be returning on another a day for a cup of coffee.

“High level copywriting is really all about research”

Mapping out a buyers’ persona is the key to good copywriting. It sets a foundation for analyzing your customer profile and then you need to go out there and take the extra mile to validate that information. It’s important to go beyond your research and to actually engage with your audience through real conversation. Speak to your customers, ask them what they think and how the product experience was. All this information is valuable data that can help you craft a copy that is geared towards absolute engagement.

“Artificial Intelligence will not replace humans because it can’t anticipate human behavior”

Technologies will be there do assist with the heavy lifting type of tasks, steering humans away from mundane roles so that they can focus on improving human relationships by using their intelligence. Instead of seeing it as a threat, we could consider algorithms as a blessing to help take over the tedious or time-consuming condensed data research.

“The consultative method should be done regularly”

Push and pull marketing can’t exist without the other and it requires strategic thinking in order for you to create effectively. If you want to connect with your customers, you not only need to know who they are. You need to know what they are looking for and why it matters. This is a gateway into mapping out a content direction that is will merge your business offering with the customer’s needs.

S02E03 Guest #4: Alex Napier Holland, a conversion copywriter expert & founder of GorillaFlow

Introducing Alex Napier Holland, an expert in B2B copywriting. He creates conversion-focused content for various companies, writing sales copy for some of the world’s biggest SaaS and technology brands, including SalesForce. Follow him on his adventures here (






Don't skip this bit. 

  • How well aware are you of the problems and solutions determines how you are able to tap into the buying process

  • When it comes to successful content, the most important metric is 1) revenue 2) leads generated and conversions 3) vanity metrics such as likes and shares

  • Data can’t tell you why content is underperforming or tell you how to fix it. A good copywriter needs to understand human behavior and adapt.


Customer Journey: Rethinking the funnel | Podcast S02E01

What do you know about your customer's journey? As much as we'd long to singalong to – "Hey babe, take a walk on the wild side," we figured it's time to have a little reality check and steer you back to a relative path that will help you understand your customer journey. The funnel is no longer as clear cut as the next infographic you find on Google. These days, you got to learn, put yourself in someone else's shoes, and if you're in any business, start walking in your customer's shoes.

We're back with Season 2 to look into the pain points of Content Marketing and its fierce evolution. As a brand, how do you make sure your customers remain loyal or engaged with your product/service? It's hard to know where to begin or how to think of the Consumer Decision Journey (CDJ) without an entry point.

Let's face it - the word 'funnel' has been widely in the realm of marketing. We decided to rope in one of Germany's leading conversion optimization and growth marketing expert, Nils Kattau, to crunch through a conversation on the matter. Together, we revisit the fundamentals and discuss how to maneuver around an ever-evolving funnel.

"It DEPENDS on what your business is and what kind of users you have."

Naturally, context is important here. If you're working your way to building the ultimate funnel, there's no one size fits all, and it's not going to be easy (sorry!). You need to be able to analyze the different stages in terms of product type and price points. The answer to these questions will determine the complexity of your customer's behavior and the barriers within their decision-making journey.

"You have to do a/b testing everywhere."

The perfect funnel doesn't exist; you can only decide on what works best by testing and making comparisons to evaluate the results. When it comes to mapping out your customer journey, you need to learn to track the right data and be able to distinguish the difference between micro and macro conversions.

"Try different marketing channels."

Get experimental and try different marketing channels. Becoming overly dependent on ONE channel is one of the biggest mistakes most businesses make these days. The joy of having an endless amount of channels out there is that you're able to find different ways to engage with your audience.

S02E01 Guest #1: Rethinking the Funnel with Nils Kattau, Founder of 'The Digital Family,' an E-Learning Platform for Advanced Online Marketing.

Introducing Nils Kattau, a conversion optimization expert who worked with clients like Airbnb, PayPal, Facebook, eBay – to name a few. An avid entrepreneur who founded THE DIGITAL FAMILY, an e-learning platform, and a German-based online marketing conference called OMLIVE. He shares insightful lead generation tips on this website and you'll find entertaining Memes on his Instagram




Don't skip this bit:

  • The bullseyes framework is useful. It will help you to experiment with both offline and online marketing channels
  • If you need a free tool for email marketing, use It's a better alternative (and cheaper!) than Mailchimp
  • Remember - your brain is a tool, don't forget to think!


How to cultivate long term collaboration with influencers? | Podcast S01E05

Finding the right influencer is similar to meeting the love of your life – it’s about compatibility. We need to connect with someone who not only share the same values but who is willing to compromise on mutual terms towards collective growth. Time is gold and you got to know what you’re investing in and why. This is an important element to any relationship building especially if you’re cultivating long term results.

We live in times when everything is instant and what a lot of us don’t realize is that a short term mentality will only lead to temporary solutions. If we’re looking to create sustainable growth, we need to start looking at ways to assimilate your passion and beliefs in whatever you invest your time with. This is most true when establishing an influencer marketing strategy. This episode reaffirms our belief at Wavemakers – influencer outreach is an organic approach to marketing and there’s no one size fit all model to determine an exact conversion.

“Make generosity a part of your strategy”

Once there’s clarity, there’s also trust and certainty. This is a primary pillar for any influencer program to succeed. If you’re going to approach an influencer for the sake of getting one message out there just for the sake of reaching your KPI then it’s almost a recipe to failure. At the end of the day, brands need to realize the importance of going beyond surface-level numbers (likes, followers) and to value any influencer through their quality of content. Is it really just about sales and conversions or is it about how your brand is being represented? Think about your end goal and whether or not if an influencer can help you achieve it. Influencer marketing is essentially about reach and awareness, and so giving your brand that human touch to bridge a lot of things that your audience may not understand. They can help break down key messages in a way that makes sense to the receiver.

“Build your brand with authenticity and integrity”

You got to lay the right foundation for influencers before you engage with one. For Sarah Lian, she empowers her Suppagood team by getting a shortlist of their desired clients including brands they dream to work with. This getting an idea of what they like, where they are headed and more importantly, to understand the WHY of any influencer you engage with. Alignment is key. Whether a brand shares the same values or not, there are always ways to find similarities on how to work together. It's up to both parties to shape the direction towards mutual success.

“Negotiation is about not being afraid to speak up and to ask (as many) questions”

Get the right information, ask as many questions. And this goes to both brands and influencers. Once you know what to expect and lay out the terms, you surpass the grey areas and avoid any potential confusion. A lot of negotiation terms are not transparent and that’s when things go wrong. Sarah Lian believes in managing expectations from both client and influencers, where they try to find a fair middle ground before any agreement. They champion the power of dialogue as the key to working towards a successful campaign. Brands need to understand why they are doing what they are doing before putting the responsibility on influencers. Be open to discussing what has worked and hasn’t, being open to education and knowledge before deciding on an approach.

S01E05 Guest: Sarah Lian

Emcee, entrepreneur and celebrity, Sarah Lian is a prominent figure who is an inspiration to a lot of women. She runs a talent and PR agency called Suppagood, a boutique agency based in Kuala Lumpur that offers out of the box thinking and creative strategies. Representing a collective of influencers from diverse backgrounds, they are focused on nurturing the potential of talents and developing their professional careers.


Don’t skip this bit:

  • Be kind to the people you work with and the people you work for
  • Brands need to understand their initial goals and be honest with expectations
  • Transparent dialogue is key to any successful influencer campaign
  • The compromise depends on the perceived value of the influencer you work with



Impact of Influencer Marketing, Vibe or Tribe? | Podcast S01E01

Inspired by the phrase, ‘your vibe attracts your tribe’, Episode 1 looks into Influencer Marketing as a means of attracting a tribe, in other words - ‘your people’. The truth is - it’s important to have brand authenticity and with reference to the personal development world, it’s about being true to your identity.

“Be Who You Are”

This theory is applicable to how brands work with influencers. If you’re going to portray your brand inconsistently, you’re probably going to attract a ‘tribe’ that has nothing in common with your brand’s purpose. That’s not going to help with your brand development. When working with influencers, you need to create an eco-system of shared value.

This is similar to how a community would share common interests and values. Building a tribe is all about connecting with people that resonate with your brand personality. This is where ‘vibe’ matters. Start by asking, ‘who is your tribe’ anyway and where do you find them within the online world?

“Your Tribe Will Support You the Most”

The key to attracting a tribe of influencers that vibes with your brand begin with how you play your role within the community. And of course – it’s about having a powerful brand vibe. One that is clear and confident about its purpose. It’s your responsibility to ‘radiate’ that culture in how you represent yourself in the market through your communication style. This is where content is power.

The only way to get better at choosing the right kind of influencers to represent your brand is to be consistent and concise with your key messages. Belief it or not, the first impression consumers are going to have on your brand is purely by how they feel about your content style. Having an emotional presence when developing a strategy will help influence the emotional ‘vibe’ surrounding your brand.

“It Can Get Personal”

Influencers are more responsive when they make a personal connection with brands. This is when it gets personal, it’s all about tapping into the wants, needs and motivation of those you seek to influence. So you got to ask yourself ask a brand – what feelings are you triggering? How engaged are you with your audience? Are you actively interested? Are you providing support when needed?

S01E01 Guest #1: A Sustainable Fashion Founder On What it Takes to Vibe & Tribe

Meet Gerda Mi, designer and founder of MAKARAWEAR. She is an influential fashion entrepreneur living and producing in Bali. Having worked with a series of influencers to promote her label, she reveals some amazing tips and Aha! Moments that will help with community building. Stalk her on Instagram here.


Don’t skip this bit:

  • Your customers are the best influencers
  • Give content guidance by creating a mood board
  • Don't be afraid to ask for feedback